King’s Outdoor World Blog

375 Comments

• 1. King’s Outdoor Worl&hellip  |  October 18th, 2005 at 8:26 pm

  […] There has been some speculation about this bull, whether it is a high fence bull or really a fair chase bull. The monster Idaho bull with the huge backs is in fact a high fence bull. It may be a new world record within the SCI scoring method for high fence, but it is not eligible for Pope and Young. There are not too many high fence bulls that actually really make you look twice, or even a third time. Regardless, this bull is very impressive. […]

• 2. Brad Faulk  |  October 18th, 2005 at 9:36 pm

  In the first picture of the 502 2/8 the background is filled with high brush and trees but the second picture has none at all. Was the Elk moved to a diffrent location between shots. Also What county was it taken.
  Thanks
  North American Hunter
  Life Member

• 3. David King  |  October 19th, 2005 at 10:24 am

  Brad,
  I am not sure the exact location or county of the ranch these bulls were taken on. You are correct as far as the photos are concerned. The bull was taken in the brush area, but they then moved the bull out of the brush and out into the open on a small ridge and took some additional photos. This is actually good practice and a good example of moving the animal out of the thick brush to where you can get better photos that show the animal and antlers better.

  David King
  King’s Outdoor World

• 4. Theboyd  |  October 22nd, 2005 at 4:22 pm

  That is one ,no two fine bull elk and it doesnt really matter how you got them as long as it was a legal method of take. To those that are to petty and jealous to give you a congradulatory high five, Well they can just p&@@ off.

• 5. Rich davis  |  October 23rd, 2005 at 4:02 pm

  What a bull !!! I wish I could get one like that next year on my youth hunt in Idaho. I’d like to know the county though.
  Happy Hunting- Rich

• 6. Kevin Reid  |  October 24th, 2005 at 7:29 am

  Dave

  Thanks for the help in setting the story straight. The only change I would make to your story is that I do consider the taking of these bulls as “Fair Chase”. Yes they were on a private ranch that has a high fence, but I do not equate the two as necessarily going together. “Fair Chase” to me defines the method and ethics used to pursue and harvest an animal, and as Most people that have hunted on a High Fenced ranch understand, you can have a “Fair Chase” situation. Just like the opposite occurance. I have seen and heard of many hunts with “No Fences” that were not “Fair Chase” I think this determination lies with the Hunter himself to determine. Of course this issue is a huge can of worms which I will not open on your web-site, but I think every individual makes his own determination of what is “Fair Chase” wether there is a fence or not.

  Thanks for your help on clarifying the story and keep up the outstanding work you and your company do. We hunters enjoy it very much.

  Kevin

• 7. Ken Hyde  |  October 24th, 2005 at 9:59 am

  Isn’t anyone curious what this animal might have cost Kevin to be able to “harvest”. To me it is a sad day in the evolution of hunting that the one with the most money wins. Animals are now being “raised” and and sold according to size and amount of money it can bring. They are also now being fed with food plots and feeders to promote larger antler growth. How natural is that??? No matter how you look at it, a fence is a fence and there is no escape. It is embarressing to have to be lumped into the same category of these people that call themselves hunters. Be a real man and come out on public lands and show us how good you. I have respect for the guys that shoot impressive animals out on the publis lands, under true fairchase rules. If you have a conscience, you will be able to look yourself in the mirror and know what that means. There have been several of these so called gurus that let their over inflated egos guide them in trying to make names for themselves only to expose their true sorry souls. For example Cal Coziah and Kirk Darner.
  It is indeed an impressive rack but so are the HUGE pumpkins that are farm raised by 4H kids.

• 8. elkhunter05  |  October 25th, 2005 at 11:12 am

  Well all i know is that bull is FARM RAISED… you think it is at all a trophy elk by going out and pinning it Then putting an aroow in it yeah right

• 9. Jeff  |  October 25th, 2005 at 3:25 pm

  The ranch is located near Soda Springs, Idaho.

• 10. max  |  October 25th, 2005 at 6:24 pm

  A fenced elk! What is the difference between that and killing one elk in a zoo?

• 11. 7J6  |  October 26th, 2005 at 6:14 am

  It’s an amazing elk, he’s truly a BIG boy, but how big would he have gotten if he wouldn’t have been fed Antler Max or some other rack enhancing supplement?? Don’t get me wrong a congrats is in order, but he wasn’t a public land bull, it’s just not the same…

• 12. Driz  |  October 26th, 2005 at 5:23 pm

  Every hunting season a friend of mine would say “I have the big one tied to a tree, now I just have to find the tree!” I never really believed that tree existed.

  PS-My seven year old just picked out the biggest pumpkin at Albertsons, but it was “fair chase” conditions. Every 7 year old had the same chance at all of the pumpkins, they were surrounded by walls on all sides, and the pumpkin only cost him $7!

• 13. Sean  |  October 26th, 2005 at 6:04 pm

  FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

  Note: free-ranging wild. High fences are not fair chase!

• 14. doris  |  October 27th, 2005 at 7:21 am

  Just wondering why Kevin stands so far behind the elks in all his pics. Is this to make the elk look bigger than they really are? Just curious. It is an old photo trick though. Beautiful elk either way.

• 15. Bernie  |  October 27th, 2005 at 10:28 am

  I would conceed a fair chase bull if the fenced area was big enough. It is a great looking bull.

• 16. Kyle Thorn  |  October 27th, 2005 at 5:29 pm

  How much did that hunt go for?

• 17. Sean  |  October 27th, 2005 at 9:07 pm

  The cheapest I have seen one of these ranch’s selling a 400″ bull for is $12,500. Anything above that is negotionalbe. I’m guessing over $30k

• 18. Cass  |  October 28th, 2005 at 2:50 pm

  As a Native Idahoan it sickens me to think that these ranches(slaughter pens) and “hunters” actually exist in our state. The day I have to pay for a key to a gate so I can kill an animal in an enclosed arena, I will lay down my bow and firearms for ever. Outdoorsman and Women around the country harvest “Trophy Animals” every year on public lands. Weather it be a forked horn buck, a doe or a 350 class bull elk. The “Trophy” is in the experience of the Hunt in fair chase conditions. I would hate to have to convince my daughter that the elk at the local zoo was fair game. As Outdoorsmen and Women we have a responsibility to keep our Hunting Heritage safe from high fences. We as hunters need to respect our pray. Lets keep them wild!

• 19. Josh  |  October 28th, 2005 at 8:26 pm

  Those are two very nice bulls and I think anyone would have shot them even if they were on high fence area…..and I know Kevin. I went hunting with him on the second season I didnt get to see the bull but he tried hard to get that bull….and the ranch was a 3000 acre ranch…I dont think the rancher feed the elk antler mass builder or what ever it’s called….he earned that bull.

• 20. mike  |  October 29th, 2005 at 9:19 am

  These are both wounderful bulls and I have no quams about this guy shooting these animals. If a person wants and has the money to shell out for this kind of hunt then that is his choice. Lots of people get a guide to do their scouting for them and nobody says much about that. Dont get me wrong, these are probally two different issues because of the high fenced area versus hunting on someones private land, and paying a trespass fee or a guide on public land. All in all people pay to get large animals. It is still hunting and if a hay bail and a bucket of grain is not there to entice the animal there then you are hunting for the animal, especially if you are using a bow. No it wasn’t in the wilderness and yes he did pay to shoot thease animals but he was still hunting. To be proud of it is his progitive and choice, but i’m sure he has other hunts in places that are not paid for and what does he do with all that meat? I know a guy that pays big money for some hunts in different states and gives most of the meat to the local shelters or donates it to local programs. Does it make him a better person? I dont know, and again this is a person that pays for big animals, some people are just in it for the trophy and that is there choice. I myself hunt for meat and horns are an option. I probally won’t shoot a cow who knows. I do teach my kids to respect game and good hunting ethnics, but what’s not to say that if I did have a lot of money to shell out to hunt my dream animal and shoot one that I would or wuold not. Who knows I’m not in that position, but I’m not going to criticize a person that does. I’ll probally get flak for this posting but that is life. I’ll say it again those are nice animals and if i had the chance I think I would take advantage of it.

• 21. Dave  |  October 30th, 2005 at 11:05 am

  In Oregon we refer to fenced areas as experimental forests. Obviously some people are a little jeaouls of Kevins achievments. I,for one, would love to have the opportunity to take an animal that impressive. Called in at 30 yards!!!!. I didn’t see ,in any of the pictures, a fence. P.S. Pumpkins are farm raised!!!!!

• 22. Trent  |  October 31st, 2005 at 9:37 am

  These are all great stories. As a native to the area I live less than a mile from the Ranch. I’m here to set the record straight. Number 1. This ranch is basically a local petting zoo. I drive over there everytime my nephew comes down so he can pet the elk. We drive up to these elk on our four-wheeler and they come running up to the fence. They are not scared of us at all. Number 2. The ranch is not even close to 3000 acres. Maybe including the open grain fields and all. There is only about maybe 15 acres maximum that has trees on it. One little hill with a pond in the bottom. These big bulls are segregated from the cows all year. If you were segregated from females all your life and then all the sudden one is calling desperately for you……..How hard would you come running in…….I laugh every time I see these pictures.

• 23. t  |  October 31st, 2005 at 10:03 pm

  If the 447 bull was taken in Idaho it was taken illegally…There is a light on his sight and that is not legal in the state of Idaho…I’m sure that I’m not the first one that noticed that…And Im not sure if it is illegal to shoot an animal with a lighted sight on Idhao private ground…If it was taken in a High fenced area , Im not impressed…should have let it live so other people could enjoy watching such a beast strut proudly around with that awesome rack…I sure would like to see that in my neck of the woods, outside the fences I might add.

• 24. t  |  November 1st, 2005 at 9:19 am

  I apologize and I stand corrected…People who hunt on private ground, high fenced areas are not subject to the same game/equipment laws as public ground hunters in Idaho…

  If that is a light on his sight, His equipment is perfectly legal…

  good to know stuff!!!

• 25. Lee  |  November 1st, 2005 at 1:20 pm

  Why anyone could be proud of an Elk shot on a high fence place I will never know. It is not hunting.

• 26. JN  |  November 1st, 2005 at 3:37 pm

  To set the record straight about the ranch. I am very good friends with the owners of the ranch. The gentleman who said that there are only 15 acres of trees that are fenced. Well partner I helped build fence around about 350-400 acres on the mountain. I have been in with the bulls and seen the setup. Weather or not you agree with the fenced hunts is your own opinion. As far as these types of ranches go, this one is top notch. The hunts are as “fair chase” as you can get in this type of environment. I am not saying they are fair chase, but by ranch standards they are as close as they get. But lets not go the way of Montana and make a huge deal of this. Montana no longer allows this type of hunting. If this is what they choose to do as a business, so be it.

• 27. Bionicrooster  |  November 1st, 2005 at 7:38 pm

  If Montana no longer allows this type of “hunting”, then maybe we should make a huge deal of this and “go the way of Montana”. The sooner these slaughter pens are shut down the better for hunting.

• 28. JN  |  November 1st, 2005 at 8:44 pm

  I strongly disagree with shutting down the high fence hunts. It is strictly business. Personally I would never shoot a bull in a high fence. But if there are people who want to pay the money to, then so be it. What is the difference between that and a cattle rancher being payed to let someone go out and shoot one of his cattle. It is strictly business. Should we shut down regular slaughter houses then too. You have to be real careful when you start shutting down peoples businesses.

• 29. Steve Minnis  |  November 2nd, 2005 at 1:43 am

  One important point that apparently has escaped your readers is the fact that hunters seldom get second chances at bull elk. If Mr. Reid had missed his 30 yard shot, what then? He probably would have retured the next day for another try. During my hunting career I’ve seen roughly 50 bull elk within bow range (30 yards or less) during the archery season. Other than the ones that were harvested, not a single elk presented itself for a second chance. If you give me unlimited opportunities to chase an animal that is confined to even 50,000 acres, I’ll be able to eventually kill it with a spear !!!

  I must say……..it was a rather brilliant idea to bring along a front end loader to relocate Mr. Reid’s game for that “better” photo. I’ll add that to my “to do” list for next years hunt.

• 30. Trent  |  November 2nd, 2005 at 8:53 am

  I agree with Montana. Hunting is a sport not a business. All these high fence ranches are making our sport into “BIG BUSINESS”. I think it gives hunting a bad name. Hunting cattle never was a sport and cattle ranches have been around for decades. I see nothing wrong with having an elk ranch and using it for other purposes than hunting. Ya I see your point the one with the most money wins the biggest bull. So now we are teaching head hunting. What ever happened to hunting for meat. Last beef I bought didn’t cost 40,000 dollars. Hopefully it don’t come to that cause me and my family will starve……unless I too start an ELK FARM.

• 31. MS  |  November 2nd, 2005 at 10:38 am

  First of all I want to say that I don’t agree with “High Fence Hunts”, however regarding Montana’s decision to not allow these types of hunts; what is the difference between setting up a high fence area to hunt trophy animals and setting up a private pond or lake that has trophy size fish in it for people to “pay to play”? Montana doesn’t seem to mind these! To me it is the same concept just a different specie. I feel if Montana is going to let farms and ranches set up lakes (or other forms of water where the fish would be unable to escape that property) strictly for business then they should allow these types of hunts.

• 32. DG  |  November 2nd, 2005 at 11:44 am

  AS A RANCHER IN MONTANA, I HAVE MIXED FEELINGS ON THE HIGH FENCE SUBJECT,, ON ONE HAND I PERSONALLY EXPERIENCE THE TIME AND MONEY OF FIXIN FENCES DESTROYED BY THE ELK WE HAVE ON OUR PROPERTY AS WELL AS ABSORBING THE COST 200 ELK FEEDING IN OUR HAY YARDS OR GRAZING THE ALFALFA FIELDS… BELIEVE IT OR NOT ELK COST US ALOT OF MONEY.. I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH TRYING TO RE-COOP SOME OF OUR LOSES WITH FEE HUNTING…
  ON THE OTHER HAND, I AM AN AVID HUNTER AND BELIEVE IN FAIR CHASE… WHAT A LAND OWNER DOES ON HIS PROPERTY IS HIS BUSINESS I FEEL.. AFTER ALL, HE PUTS THE TIME, SWEAT, MONEY AND FUTURE INTO MAINTAINING HIS PROPERTY

• 33. Steve Minnis  |  November 2nd, 2005 at 12:11 pm

  The relationship between the rancher and the guy who wants to kill a captive elk is clearly no one elses business, However, the rub comes when the would-be “hunter” poses with the dead animal in magazines that are supposed to cater to the true sportsman. What’s up with SCI ? Do they accept road kills in their book?

• 34. jared rasmussen  |  November 2nd, 2005 at 1:02 pm

  Well I have to tell the world. I can’t take it anymore. Kevin Reid is an awesome hunter, make no more about the “high fence”. This was one of the hardest bulls to hunt in my 15 years of archery hunting experience. My brother Billy and I are the Thunder Mountain Elk Ranch Owners, in Soda Springs, Idaho. We were also Kevin’s guides during this 502 7/8″ bull taken in Sept. 2005.
  Kevin, Nugent says “YOU ROCK” and so do I man.

• 35. Lee  |  November 2nd, 2005 at 3:11 pm

  I have no doubt Kevin is a great hunter…too bad he wasn’t hunting the day he shot that elk.

  The problem, as someone alluded to earlier, is that these elk farms are more than commerce between someone raising an elk and joe millionaire coming over to “hunt” it. It is not hunting and it gives the pasttime many of us enjoy a bad name. Thank God that P&Y and B&C do not recognize these elk.

• 36. J Westerhausen  |  November 2nd, 2005 at 8:48 pm

  What did he name the bulls, Rafeal Palmero and Romanski, the steroid role models?

• 37. Steve Minnis  |  November 2nd, 2005 at 9:40 pm

  This is a rather stimulating forum. I wouldn’t have imagined that I would be eagerly awaiting new comments on this subject. Never the less, I do have a couple of questions for the owner of the Thunder Mountain Elk Ranch. The opening commentary states that the second bull killed by your client was actually spotted the year before. If that is true, do you think that your own prowess as a guide would have enabled you to find that same elk a year later if it had not been fenced in? If that was the toughest bull that you helped kill in your 15 years experience, how many of those 15 years were on the other side of the fence?

• 38. Steve Johnson  |  November 3rd, 2005 at 10:27 am

  Gentlemen,

  This has become very entertaining. It seems as though we have touched on many different subjects as a result of these animals. I usually avoid these types of things other than the discussions I have with my buddies but I feel I need to chime in on this one and I will try to hit them all in one post.

  1. This is America and it revolves around supply and demand. This ranch provides poeple who are willing to pay for it, the opportunity to kill an animal. (Notice I said kill and not hunt). I am sure these people have a first class program with everything from accomodations to customer service. I will never criticize them for that. I however, would never pay to attend a ranch such as this to kill a farm animal.

  2. These are not wild animals. I would venture to say that these elk would never win the herd from the true ruler of the roost in the wild. They most likely wouldn’t even survive the first challenge. I have no facts to back this up, it is just my opinion.

  3. As far as comparing this to real hunting, the best scenario I can come up with is Major League Baseball Fantasy Camp. A bunch of guys get together to play baseball. They dress up in real uniforms and play some form of real baseball and even get to meet a few of their boyhood heroes. And, it comes at a price. Hitting against Nolan Ryan in his fifties, throwing 60mph is not the same as hitting against him in his prime when he was throwing 99mph.

  If you are willing to pay the money to kill a farm raised captive animal and enjoy it, then so be it. That is your right and I hope it was worth it. I think the gentleman that owns the land probably has a good business and happy customers and that’s okay too. But, the fact is, this is not hunting and these animals should never be recognized or even scored like those taken in real fair chase hunts.

  I should say this before I go. I think it would be interesting to go to a practice range where the targets were live moving animals instead of stationary paper targets or hay bails. I just don’t think I would pay thousands of dollars to do that.

• 39. Sean Morgan  |  November 3rd, 2005 at 11:13 am

  I’ve bowhunted in Idaho for over thirty years and can certainly appreciate the challenge of hunting elk. If this guy who is proported to be such a great “hunter” want’s to stay inside a fenced enclosure to do his “hunting” …..so be it. The less I have to contend with other folks in the woods, the more enjoyable my experience will be. I hope more Hi-tech guys with a lot of money do the same thing.

• 40. Steve Head  |  November 3rd, 2005 at 11:42 am

  Fair chase, Fenced in?!….What bothers me more than anything, is watching someone on a Buckmasters TV program sitting in a shack on stilts, killing a big buck, qualifies for B&C, and calling that “Fair Chase”. What chase? No doubt the buck was not fenced in but if B&C want to update the rules, let’s really update who is chasing and who is waiting for the baited buck (fence or no fence), to come in. I have fed enough deer to know how easy this can be with enough land!

• 41. David King  |  November 3rd, 2005 at 12:20 pm

  For those interested in knowing more about the Mike Shipsey 502 Bull elk taken off from the San Carlos Apache Reservation, you can check out the new post here. This is at least what I know.
  http://blog.kingsoutdoorworld.com/2005/11/03/mike-shipsey-502-bull-elk-mystery/

  David King
  King’s Outdoor World

• 42. Outdoors Television Online  |  November 3rd, 2005 at 1:46 pm

  I am not defending what he did, but not everyone has the time in their schedule to spend weeks at a time romping through a national forest hoping to see a trophy Bull. I am not from the west but I do have many friends who travel each year in search of a bull. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but it does provide a service to people who just want a monster elk mounted on their wall. I personally enjoy the hunt more than kill but that’s just me.

• 43. Jenn  |  November 3rd, 2005 at 2:08 pm

  Well, I’m certainly glad that the various hunting channels and outfitters don’t promote strategic food plotting and the feed that should go in those plots since that could certainly compromise the ‘fair chase’ aspect. So would Buffalo hunting in SD on 5,000 - 10,000 acre ranches constitute fair chase. We have 7 kids to feed and I want to make sure we are playing by the rules so as not to offend anyone.

• 44. Kris Peterson  |  November 3rd, 2005 at 10:37 pm

  I think this type of hunting is a joke. Many of us Idaho locals enjoy going out in the National forests and pursuing our quarry on thousands of acres of unfenced land. Not only that not many of us can afford to go on unethical hunts like that. I’ve hunted elk for 4 years now and still haven’t shot one. This doesn’t bother me none due to the fact any bulls missed or passed up this year may be there next year and may even be bigger. To me hunting is a way of connecting with nature and help preserve our wildlife for generations to come. Some of you may agree and some may disagree but we are all entitled to our opinions and the above is my opinion.

• 45. Max  |  November 4th, 2005 at 4:47 pm

  I shot an elk when I was 16 years old. It was a 7×7.( 1 inch 7th point, but 1 inch is 1 inch). I was very excited about my trophy bull. The funny thing is, is I got up very very early in the morning and went and set up by a water hole where we had seen them coming into early in the year. I guess I could call that a ‘fairchase” and to me there isn’t much difference. All I wish is that it could have been a 502 bull instead of a 300+ bull! Congratulations on the impressive bull!

• 46. Dtag  |  November 4th, 2005 at 7:52 pm

  I am from Idaho, and am quite familiar with this Idaho ranch as well as the owners. It is a very beautiful place in the the caribou mountains. I guess I just don’t understand the ” quote quote” fair game phrase is that people talk about. As far as I know everthing on the Ranch is fair game, if you got the cash. But it seems to me that there is a jeoulosy toward people that are successful and have some wealth.
  I shot a spike elk this year standing off the side of the road, on national forest. Was this fair game?? Or should I have gotten out of my truck and fired three bullets in the air to scare it off into fairgame territory? Needless to say I backed my truck to the elk. What I would of payed for a front end loader!!!

• 47. jerm  |  November 4th, 2005 at 10:44 pm

  I am also from Idaho and have had the privilege to go and see this elk ranch first hand, and I would have to tell you that it is the most beautiful place you have ever seen!!!! After reading all these comments about high fences and fair game, I’ve come to realize that there are alot of jealous people out there. I know that if the owners of this elk ranch gave away a free hunt that all you (Quote, Quote) wanna be hunters would be all over that!!! I know guys who are paying all kinds of money to go on outfitter hunts for a week and not see a thing. Why waste your money on that when you can hunt on an elk ranch and you are guaranteed an elk? If the guy has the money to do this more power to him!!!!

• 48. Bill Stone  |  November 5th, 2005 at 12:15 pm

  SCI has once again proven itself as an enemy to “real” hunters. This corporate organization has sold its soul to the highest bidder and has sold out to commercialism. Neither of these animals should be in any record book, except maybe, the “Tame animals slaughtered behind a fence” record book.

• 49. Sean Morgan  |  November 5th, 2005 at 7:00 pm

  Hey Dtag Buddy…………Do you know that you broke the law with your spike elk kill? You might consider staying inside the fence too. For those of you that can’t understand the concept of “FAIR CHASE” think in terms of whether the animal can get away if you miss the shot. It’s not a matter of outsmarting an animal by calling, decoying, or bating it. The issue is whether you can hunt that specific animal day after day until you kill it. If the fence prohibits the animal from escaping your efforts to kill it, then you have to ask yourself if the fence gave you an unfair advantage. It’s not rocket science !!!!

• 50. Tommy  |  November 6th, 2005 at 9:18 am

  Shooting an elk with a bow is not easy in any environment. This hunter admits to killing the elk in a high fenced area… It may not be “fair chase”, but what and accomplishment!!

• 51. Dtag  |  November 6th, 2005 at 2:18 pm

  Hey Sean buddy, just what law was broken??? If you think these elk on the ranch can’t get away from a hunter, then you shouldn’t even be discussing the issue. I can see you are very uneduacated to what this elk ranch is, let me just tell ya, it is approximately a thousand acres of forest land, thats a 1000 not 10.
  And to Bill Stone, you need to go to this ranch and try befriending one of these tame animals, have you heard the saying, If you mess with the bull, your gonna get the horn??

• 52. Sean Morgan  |  November 6th, 2005 at 8:15 pm

  YOU SHOT AN ELK FROM THE WINDOW OF A TRUCK ….DUH…… LET ME THINK??????? LIKE I SAID…… STAY INSIDE THE FENCE!!!!!!!! HAVE SOMEONE HELP YOU WITH YOUR SPELLING AND GRAMMAR !!

  “UNEDUACATED” Hmm………IS THAT THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK ??

• 53. Sean Morgan  |  November 6th, 2005 at 9:04 pm

  I’m really curious about something and would appreciate some input from the supporters of the High Fence method of killing animals. If the fence does not prevent the animals from leaving the property and it does not give the hunter multiple chances for the kill, then why bother installing it ? Given the estimated size of the property at even the low end of 400 acres, I’m sure the fence would be very expensive for the rancher.

• 54. Bill Stone  |  November 6th, 2005 at 10:42 pm

  Dear Dtag,
  I would never go to this or any other ranch to hunt because it is NOT a natural hunt. By the way, I’m not familiar with your saying.

• 55. Wolfman  |  November 7th, 2005 at 12:43 am

  Kevin’s elk is an amazing animal. I live just a couple of miles from the ranch that the bull was shot at. They recieved the bull the spring of 2005 without horns. They did not know it would be so large. It was shot with a bow after a few days of hunting. Call a Spade a Spade. $$$$$$ talks, bull*#$% still walks.

• 56. Operator  |  November 7th, 2005 at 1:30 am

  I don’t have a problem with the guy spending the money to hunt an elk in this way. But… I got the straight story on how the hunt went and how it played out. Don’t try and tell we “joe Public” how hard you hunted and how much time you put in. It is a fine trophy animal, but tell it how it is and was. I’m good friends with the owners and operators of this nice ranch. They have really done a great job getting it started. They really don’t care what cock and bull story you tell your good friends, but we the Idaho locals don’t buy it. HAPPY HUNTING… ; )

• 57. Lee  |  November 7th, 2005 at 12:44 pm

  Hey Jerm,
  You ask ”
  “I know guys who are paying all kinds of money to go on outfitter hunts for a week and not see a thing. Why waste your money on that when you can hunt on an elk ranch and you are guaranteed an elk? ”
  Because the former is actually hunting and the latter is not

  “I know that if the owners of this elk ranch gave away a free hunt that all you (Quote, Quote) wanna be hunters would be all over that!!! ”
  I can say with 100% conviction that if they called me right now to offer a free “hunt” I would laugh in their face. A real hunter does not need high fences.

• 58. Scott s  |  November 7th, 2005 at 1:32 pm

  Hey Lee

  Your right if that Ranch were to call and offer a free hunt I would be all over it! So would anyone else that wanted a monster bull like that (well except for you).
  3000 acres is a lot of ground to cover on a hunt fenced or not.

• 59. Dee Smith  |  November 7th, 2005 at 3:26 pm

  I was wondering if anyone would know how old an animal like this would be? Also I wonder if there would be any other trophy bulls that would score over 500 on this ranch? What is the ranch called?

• 60. Dtag  |  November 7th, 2005 at 7:05 pm

  Once again your assuming something you have no clue about! There is not one thing said about me shooting from the window of my truck, or even anything that would make anybody think that I did. It almost sounds like you were hunting with me or something.Please try not to assume things about me in the future!!

• 61. David Mcrea  |  November 7th, 2005 at 7:58 pm

  Not being from the area but don’t they put fencing around those national forests. Just curious

• 62. Sean Morgan  |  November 8th, 2005 at 1:21 am

  Well, I guess I have to admit it after all…………if the rancher offered me a 500 class bull for free …..I would take him up on it.

  However, I would insist on one condition. Before the “hunt” I would request that the rancher tranquilize the bull so I could actually score it before I decide to purchase it for slaughter. Every inch counts you know. I would also like to have different pictures of me and the animal in different poses and in a variety of “natural” settings. After all……..if it’s a “HUNT OF A LIFETIME” I would want it to be just right

• 63. Sean Morgan  |  November 8th, 2005 at 1:45 am

  Dtag, sorry I assumed that you shot the spike from the window of your truck. Since you were inside your truck and the elk was apparently outside your truck, I thought it was quite logical to assume that you shot it through your window. Given the way you sound…….. you probably shot it through your windshield.

• 64. Alan  |  November 8th, 2005 at 10:43 am

  You people have way too much time on your hands!
  In this day and age, is anything “fair chase”? We have gone from sticks and rocks, to high powered rifles with super optics, range finders, heat detectors and more. Even archery now has high powered compound bows with fancy sights and releases. Elk ranchers raise and own their elk. They are livestock. They are NOT elk taken from the wild. If someone wants to buy elk meat from them, guess what that elk must be killed somehow. If the buyer wants to go there and hunt it, is that your business? Just because you don’t want to do it, it should automatically be stopped. Well then, PETA hates the way you hunt too. Does that mean it should be stopped???
  Why can’t you just stay away from fenced hunts if you don’t like them, but stay out of the business of those who do? This is America, freedom of choice for all, not just the narrow minded.

• 65. chad  |  November 8th, 2005 at 11:34 am

  Thank you Alan
  I had two people come and harvest some bulls this year. One was happy to just get some meat beacuse it is very lean and healthey and he was tired of spending the big Dollar and not getting any meat The second one was a guy that only had one leg He was happy just to shoot a elk beacuse he would not of been able to do it in the wild SO would any of you guys against HIGH FENCE take a person that is Handicap in the wild for a week up and down the hills to find a elk probbly NOT. So this is a chance for them to Harvest a bull or a Cow He was verry Happy with his Harvest THANK YOU

• 66. Steve Minnis  |  November 8th, 2005 at 1:02 pm

  Alan and Chad,

  You both raise some valid points. There is certainly an application for this method of harvesting an animal. Taking disadvantaged people out for a hunt is admirable and it also reinforces the point that so many hunters have made. It is not the same as hunting in unfenced forested land. I agree that it is no ones business except the rancher and his client. If Mr. Reid had killed the animals and kept it to himself and a few friends, no one would be the wiser. Unfortunately he didn’t. Mr. Reid wants the world to know about his “achievement” by circulating photos and trying to compare himself to sportsmen like me that hunt for the “sport” I find it ironic that Mr. Reid used a bow to kill his elk. Do you think he felt a little guilty about shooting a fenced animal with a gun? Was the bow selected to prolong the hunt beyond the first few hours or was it selected to make the event a more impressive accomplishment? As an avid archer who has hunted with a bow for years, I can tell you that success with archery equipment is directly related to the number of encounters you have. If you have an opportunity to chase an animal that cannot get away, a proficient archer will eventually make the shot. Alan…….the reason there is so much hoopla related to this issue is not because “you people” have too much time on our hands, it’s because hunters like me want to preserve the sport that we are so passionate about. I’m sure the PETA folks would be a lot more sympathetic to high fenced hunting than open range hunting. They could justify their dillusion by clinging to the idea that it is analogous to killing domestic livestock for food. I just don’t want my sport to turn into “pay to play” I think Idaho Fish and Game would probably rather see high fenced hunting also…… they wouldn’t have to bother with game management and could focus 100% of their time rather than 90% on chasing suspected poachers.

• 67. Jon  |  November 8th, 2005 at 2:45 pm

  I would like to thank who ever posted these pics. WOW what a bull. If my buddy buys a new corvette you can bet he is gonna show it off. Do I hold a grudge and get jealous? no sir. Just happy for him. same as Kevin , congrats and I too am jealous.

• 68. Keith  |  November 8th, 2005 at 2:58 pm

  As a native” Idahoan” the more people who see these bulls that were killed in Idaho the more will flock here to kill thier very own 400-500 class bull. Those of us who actually “hunt” know the odds of killing a bull of this size on public land in Idaho is about 1 in a BILLION but this will not stop all the wannna be Daniel Boone’s from all over the states invading Idaho. Idaho is already so infested with out of state hunters “who do not have a clue about hunting ethics”, that I am afraid to let my children out of the truck because they may be shot by some California idiot that shoots at anything that moves. So if these fenced ranches keep them out of the woods I hunt then more power to them but I am afraid it will just bring in more people because they heard Idaho is the new hot spot to take a huge bull.

• 69. TGE  |  November 9th, 2005 at 2:59 pm

  It never ceases to amaze me how what is supposed to be the most intelligent creature on earth - mankind - displays it’s ignorance so readily in this discussion forum. That’s precisely why what happened in Montana is the perfect example of stupidity. The government let the “people” decide on something that the majority knew nothing about. Actually, it’s alot like this discussion forum. You opponents to high fence hunting have probably never experienced it for yourselves personally. So, my point is this - why should you be entitled to have an opinion about something you know nothing about???
  Maybe the best thing everyone who enjoys hunting of all types should do is get their heads out of their butts and recognize what’s really going on - the animal rights activists don’t like hunting of any kind. If we don’t stick together and preserve our right to hunt inside and outside the fence then somebody might decide to put it to a general vote of the uninformed masses?!? If that happens, the innocent elk farmers in Montana may not be the only loosers.
  There is obviously a marketplace that’s willling to support both sides of the fence so there’s room for all of us. I say, THREE CHEERS FOR SCI for recognizing all of us and preserving our right to hunt - INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE FENCE!!!

• 70. Lee  |  November 9th, 2005 at 3:42 pm

  Alan,
  You said, “Why can’t you just stay away from fenced hunts if you don’t like them, but stay out of the business of those who do? This is America, freedom of choice for all, not just the narrow minded”
  You are missing the point. It is not about convincing PETA whack jobs on the merits of hunting, you might as well try to convince bible thumpers there is no God. You can’t do either. It is about the perception the rest of the non-hunting public has. They are o.k with actual hunting but when high fence operations claim it is a hunt, they (non-hunting public)associate real hunting with it and it indroduces a negative perception of real hunting in their minds.
  TGE said
  “THREE CHEERS FOR SCI for recognizing all of us and preserving our right to hunt - INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE FENCE!!! ”
  Inside the fence is not hunting.

• 71. neil gallegos  |  November 9th, 2005 at 7:28 pm

  its all right if you only shot one big bull.anyway if i had shot one bulls at that size i for sure woudnt tell anyone where I went its hard to beleive that. any way nice bull and nice shot

• 72. Steve Minnis  |  November 9th, 2005 at 8:27 pm

  The only hunting that went on with Kevin Reid is his hunt through the yellow pages for the ranch with the largest antlered elk money could buy . As far as the comment about sticking together to preserve the sport of hunting……..there will be no sport for me or others like me if we allow individuals to compare what we do with what Kevin Reid did. If you join Safari Club International, you will quickly see that it is not an organization for the average income hunter. They support this type of harvesting animals because their membership is largely comprised of wealthy folks that are not exactly what you would expect to see climbing steep mountains chasing Idaho elk. I believe that “only in America” can one hunt for free on open range land. Europe and many other countries that alllow hunting have structured their hunts similar to the now infamous ranch in eastern Idaho. If you want hunting to become proprietary in nature where only the rich can afford it, then I quess you should support the raising and killing of captive animals.

• 73. RLM  |  November 9th, 2005 at 11:22 pm

  What an interesting blog! I think the elk are indeed beautiful and HUGE but the question is…Should these elk qualify as a record for an archery hunt? NO! Only if they come up with a new standard for ranch animal records. This is much like catching the biggest fish in the hatchery! A hunting ranch is a great idea for the person who has the money, but no time for a “REAL” hunt. But to compare this to a trophy of the true hunter who has successfully hunted his game in the wild is like comparing a tricycle to a Harley. The ranch animals are not only raised with unlimited food supply throughout the year…they are accustomed to humans, they are enclosed (doesnt matter what size they are imprisoned in) and for a bow hunter to have the opportunity to have a shot at an elk that size is one thing but to kill one 2 years in a row…not likely. I do not think one single “hunter” on this site would be even the slightest bit jealous of shooting an elk of any size in a fenced area. The ones on here that think it dont matter are the true jealous ones because they know they could never compete in the real hunting world.

• 74. JN  |  November 11th, 2005 at 1:10 pm

  Dee Smith,
  The ranch is called “Thunder Mountain Elk Ranch.” I talked to the owners last night on the phone. They said they think they may have one bull that is even bigger than the one causing all the ruckus on here. I have known the owners for a number of years and you will never meet nicer guys. The ranch is located south of Soda Springs, Idaho. It really is one of the most beautiful settings I have ever seen. Now everyone take your turn bashing on me for being friends with these guys. One word of comfort for us die hard hunters. And I did say us, I am an avid hunter and would not “high fence hunt.” I don’t know what all the concearn is about these bulls will never make it to the B&C or the P&Y books. So if you don’t like it don’t pay any mind to the SCI.

• 75. Kris Peterson  |  November 11th, 2005 at 7:23 pm

  As a native Idahoan I agree with Keith. I think that there are too many out of state hunters in our beautiful state. There are several times I’ve gone out in the woods and run into an out of state hunter who just shoots at anything that moves there has been several times I’ve been on a hillside stalking an animal and have had it shot right out from under me. I was in plain sight wearing orange and when I confronted the guy he said first come first serve this is why I now hunt on land where there is no road access because I don’t feel safe. I just think that the fact the out state hunters come in by the dozens each year makes the trophys less scarce.

• 76. Mark  |  November 12th, 2005 at 1:38 pm

  Wow, I’ve just spent about an hour of my life reading a whole load of horse pocky. Who cares if the elk was in a fence. The man shot an elk that was bought , fed and then sold to someone who wanted a big head on his wall. Open up any bass pro catalog and you’ll find seeds for sell that claim to produce larger antlers. Go into any national forest and you’ll find mineral salt blocks, hay bales and planted food plots that are placed there by so called ehtical hunters in hope that they will create a honey hole that is full of big horned game. I spent many years in the woods during hunting season. Not as a hunter ,but as a warden, and I can tell you this, 90% of the so called ehtical hunters I met were in violation of some state or federal law. High fence ranches don’t give hunters a bad name, idiots, claiming to be ethical Hunters do! If the only reason you are out in the woods is to bag a record elk or deer to make a name for yourself or worst yet, for the big money, you are missing the target. Being out in the woods is the adventure, and you can do that in a fence or on the other side looking in. I now own a ranch in New Mexico. We are blessed with hugh elk. On three sides of the ranch we are bordered by national forest. Each year I find foot prints crossing on to our private land by hunters. They come into our posted property because we don’t chase the elk from hill to hill with 4 wheelers. If I put up a fence to keep them out, I guess by your standards my hunters would be a bunch of sissies with money. Learn to enjoy the sport of hunting and don’t get caught up in the world of horn hunting. You’ll then be able to truly enjoy the outdoor experience. Take your kids. Take your wife to the woods. Who cares if they make a noise and scare off a buck or bull. You’ll be making memories that will out last that head on the wall. You’ll also enjoy your time in the woods a lot more if, your not looking over your shoulder for the game warden. Hunt legal and enjoy your time in the woods.

• 77. Operator  |  November 12th, 2005 at 3:44 pm

  For all of those out there who know the owners of “Thunder Mountain Elk Ranch” I would like to say that I agree. You will not meet a nicer bunch of guys. They have worked hard to get it going and they have done a beautiful job. You could not pick a better location. I have recently spoke with one of the owners and they have many bulls that score well into the 450 range. All of this though, is so stupid. Dont you girls out there get your panties in a bunch. I am sure if you work hard enough you can get your trophys. Just as Kevin did. Not only hunting but also building his business so that he may fund such a once in a lifetime experience. I myself would not pay to hunt in such and way but “Whatever floats your boat”.

• 78. Jody  |  November 13th, 2005 at 7:14 pm

  I just completed a hunt on National Forest Land in Colorado. Does fair chase include a bunch of unrelated hunters lined up on public land (just off the road edge, sitting in pickups, with their guns laying on the ground or against the truck) waiting for the herds to migrate off the private land to get to there wintering grounds? You could definitely here when a herd went for it as it would sound like WWIII as all the hunters opened fire. Some other hunters who witnessed this said they would shoot as far as 700 yards at the herd. Must have been flock shooting. Then, every once in a while you would here trucks peeling around on the roads and shots continuing!! Must have missed the herd bull on his first attempt to break across the flatland, usually though the shots would quit and the truck engines would die out. I figure that must be when they finally laid the bull out. Anyways, I thought this would be interesting food for thought.
  By the way, I was unsuccessful on filling my tag. I guess I may have been hiking to far into the wilderness designated areas when I should have joined some of the crowds along the road edges!!

• 79. Fred  |  November 14th, 2005 at 9:29 am

  High fences and farm raised animals do not equate to a fair chase hunt. This is nothing other than a “canned hunt” and should never be called ethical.

• 80. Steve Head  |  November 14th, 2005 at 10:36 am

  And sitting in a “shack on stilts” and waiting for the baited buck to come in apparently is an OK “fair chase” situation by B&C as long as there is no fence! If you are baiting a buck, your are basically farm raising your future kill. Look at the ads on how growing food plots, putting out certain grains and so forth enhance horn growth. Unfortunately we are at the point where rules, like steroids in baseball, are a little cloudy. “He who legally kills, feeds, baits, or picks up the biggest horns, should go the spoils.”

• 81. Bob  |  November 15th, 2005 at 8:26 am

  I have personal knowledge that the 502 bull was harvested at Thunder Mountain elk ranch, near Soda Springs Idaho. The other bull is a high fence bull too, not sure if it was the same operation or one near Island Park Idaho. Moooooooooooo. No fair chase, like hosing a cow.

• 82. Mark  |  November 15th, 2005 at 9:19 am

  I don’t think there is a solution to this topic. We humans like the biggest and best. We always try to out do our neighbor. We will continue to go into the woods in hopes of taking the biggest buck or bull. It’s the herds that come out at the bottom. We are leaving the ( better tasting ) smaller weaker bucks and bulls to pass on their genes to the future herd. Most of us want to hunt when the bulls and bucks are breeding. Wow, what a rush to see a hugh screaming bull come into your cow call. The only thing that can beat that , is the feeling I get when I don’t take him. A prized photo or video of the meeting we had is much more enjoyable. Plus I already have a 10X11 398 1/2 on the wall. They might be only sheds that I found, but he sure looks good in the cabin.

• 83. Tom  |  November 15th, 2005 at 9:59 am

  Congrates on your Big Bull; however was it a fair chase or paid hunt on a Elk Ranch? I gave up hunting years ago because of the expense of hunting on private ranches (non-game rasied ranches) I never hunted on game raised ranches (Wild game Ranches) nor would I ever there is no sport in that nor is there sport in hiring a guide, they know where the game is whats the sport in that.

• 84. MIKE111  |  November 17th, 2005 at 1:29 pm

  Why haven’t we heard from Kevin Reid the real story on how these bulls were killed. If he is going to put them on the internet, let’s hear the story. He wasn’t very upfront about them being fair chase, or there wouldn’t have been questions about them when they were posted.

  By the way I don’t think too many on here are jealus of these bulls, how could you? I just like it when real hunters get the fame instead of him.

• 85. Will  |  November 17th, 2005 at 2:27 pm

  I have to agree with what some people have said before me. You people hunt whitetails on feeders and crops you planted for them to eat…. aka baiting them!!! This guy hunted on a large piece of property with a fence and took two huge bulls! If you think that him hunting in a fenced area then maybe you hunters that bait whitetails or even bears should go and figure out how what he did is different from what you did! Mike111 I really do think that a lot of the people replying to this story are jealous of the bulls because they are so big and there might never be any that size again. He is a hunter through and through by definition so maybe you people should think about these things before you start giving out criticism!

• 86. CD  |  November 17th, 2005 at 3:59 pm

  Will,

  This man did not “HUNT” on a large piece of property. He might as well walked into a Wal-mart and arrowed the beef tenderlion laying on the counter. I shot a 150 class Mule Deer buck this year out of a tree stand miles from any fence. Most of my succes came from out-smarting my pray and alot of luck. Not from cornering him against a fence. I agree with Mike111. How come we have’nt heard from Kevin? Maybe he should tell his story. And if Kevin wants to come to Idaho and hunt real elk…come on, I’ll even cow call for him.

• 87. David King - King's Outdoor World  |  November 17th, 2005 at 10:39 pm

  Mike111,

  Let me see if I can help answer a few questions that you brought up in comment #84. You mention why we have not heard from Kevin Reid. This post in general is from Kevin Reid giving me the details on the hunt and his bulls to help clear up the rumors that have been circulating around the Internet. When his bull started ciruculating through emails and message boards, I myself wanted to know what was going on. I therefore, went to the source. I was able to find out who the hunter was and eventually contact him. I personally talked with Kevin Reid over the phone about these two huge bull elk and got the answers I was looking for.

  Kevin was very up front about the situation and I could sense a little frustration about what had transpired beyone his control. Because of this he agreed to let me tell his side of the story and post it along with permission to post the photos of his elk. At the time of this post, I don’t believe there was any other web site that was actually posting the photos of his elk with his permission or consent.

  Between the post that I made about his elk and a brief history, you can get an idea of what Kevin’s story is. If you scroll back up and read comment post #6, it is from Kevin personally commenting on the post and adding some addtional thoughts that he has about the hunt and the elk. This is his story.

  My intention on posting this information was not about whether you agree with high fenced hunting or not. There is a very good debate and many great points have been posted for and against high fenced hunting. It is making for some great discussion and allowing people to learn and share their own views and experiences. The purpose of this post was to clear the rumors about these two bulls. Rumors were spreading at an all-time high and nobody had any relevant information to help the cause.

  From what I understand, Kevin Reid did not post any photos of his bulls on any web site to start these rumors. He emailed the photos of his bulls to a small group of close friends. Unfortunately the photos started getting forwarded to other people and it extended beyone the control of including the correct information along with the photos within the emails. Over time, these photos started making it on to message boards with wild claims that Joe-Bob anyone decided to make because their uncle thought he heard something that a guy at work overheard….you know what I mean.

  So to accuse Kevin of purposely trying to deceive the public over these bulls is not correct. Again, that is the reason for this post. After reading the post again, in addition to comment #6, what other information would you like to know from Kevin Reid? He clearly has he views on hunting that maybe not everyone would agree upon. However, he was clear and upfront about them. Therefore, I respect that. I can still do that regardless of whether I agree with high fenced hunting or not.

  Thanks for the continued comments.

  David King
  King’s Outdoor World

• 88. Will  |  November 18th, 2005 at 9:58 am

  well fellas it seems some people just got their foot firmly inserted into their mouths!

• 89. trc  |  November 19th, 2005 at 9:46 am

  I think he’s a stud fenced or not fenced.

• 90. Elk Guy  |  November 20th, 2005 at 12:43 pm

  We have a hunting ranch that is 1,000 acres, in the PA mountains. Fact is, there is a fence around it and while the elk can’t run to the next piece of property to run away, the place is all forrested, and a difficult hunt. The vast majority of the elk there were either born wild, or put in when they were very young. They are elusive. Is it as difficult as taking a bull in the wild? No. Personally, I have spent many years hunting deer and elk in the west, only to be dissappointed from the over hunted herds and closed off access to public lands. While many people are happy to fund a situation where they can have a higher quality hunting experience, it is odd that so many are so vocally against it. My guess is that the nay-sayers would go on a hunt like this, if they had the opportunity to do so. To be so vocally sure that it is a “turkey shoot” while never having been on one, demonstrates a closed mind, and an attitude that is really very un-American, in regard to personal freedoms.

  Open your minds guys, this is America. If you don’t like it, don’t go.

• 91. Harmon Silloway  |  November 21st, 2005 at 6:54 pm

  High fence…. enough said….

  I just can’t believe he is smiling.

• 92. Elk Hunter  |  November 22nd, 2005 at 7:35 am

  It looks to me as a bunch of small minded people, pointing fingers at a guy who had an amazing adventure. My hat is off to this guy for the adventure that he has experienced, and the fact that he has been successful enough in his life to afford such a thing.

  Like it or not, we live in a world where there is far too much hunting pressure, and the result is far too few trophy elk out there. I myself am saving up to go to a private ranch where I hope to score on a big 6 x 6 elk. I am too tired of the public land hunting where I have hunted, year after year, and if I am lucky only see a spike or some cows, if I am lucky.

  To those of you small minded types, you sound like PETA members in disguise.

• 93. Hunter  |  November 22nd, 2005 at 6:35 pm

  Go ahead and joke about PETA. These kinds of hunts provide the ammunition they need. Remember most of the country doesn’t hunt and they vote! We need to keep them on our side, PETA will work do the opposite. Who will win? Will your grandkids get to hunt? Can CA residents hunt mountain lions? Think about it!

  Enjoy your mineral licking / breeding program bull! Someday you won’t be able to shoot it on either side of a high fence. I’ll stick to the 380 bulls I see in the wild every year that hand my ass to me every time I try to kill one. That’s hunting!

  By the way, Kevin, don’t say you don’t want to “Open that can of worms” and then post it on a blog. That made me laugh. Thanks!

• 94. Hunter  |  November 22nd, 2005 at 7:05 pm

  Josh

  The bull was raised in Montana, sold to Idaho and killed there. IT wasn’t born and raised on that 3000 acres. By the way 3000 acres lost to free roaming wildlife forever.

• 95. Hunter  |  November 22nd, 2005 at 7:34 pm

  Lee

  Well Put!

• 96. Mark  |  November 23rd, 2005 at 9:08 am

  My wife and I have been blessed to own a private ranch in New Mexico. We removed all the cattle 7 years ago and have put thousands in to wildlife habitat improvements. We only allow 8 hunts a year for Elk and 4 mule deer hunts. We do not buy ranch raised elk or deer. All of the game that is on our ranch is native free ranging state owned animals. We are surrounded by national forrest. Our boundry fence is 4 foot high which allows game to come and go as they please. Because there is no pressure from our side of the fence, We have the herds on us during the hunting season. We are very selective in what bulls and bucks are taken, 5X5 or better. Bulls that have been taken in the last few years have been 350 class or better and we have been seeing bulls pushing 400 for the last few years. Because we have spent the money on habitat improvements, provide free ranging feed, shelter and water to the herds on our deeded land and because we provide ethical hunts to manage the herds, the state provides us with elk tags that we can sell to help fund our wildlife management plan. We were awarded an award for ranch of the year last year for our committment to the land and wildlife. We sell our tags to an outdoor hunting show that sells them to hunters from around the country that want to experience a hunt of a life time. We have a new hunting cabin that sleeps 4, we provide home cooking and we have a walk in cooler to insure game does not spoil. If any one is interrested in more info., contact Dr. Tom Lavalle 505-401-0115

• 97. Hunter  |  November 23rd, 2005 at 12:42 pm

  Great Mark

  Great for the wildlife but does nothing for the future of hunting. Only the wealthy hunt the ranch. If only the Kennedy’s & Bush’s get to hunt, then the future of hunting is domed. Do we live in Great Britian or Germany????? Thank goodness for the public land that we have or there would be nothing!!

  Sounds like a great ranch, however, and I’m glad to hear that you love the wildlife.

  Consider doing something for the folks that bag your groceries or the teachers and coaches who help turn your kids into productive citizens.

• 98. Tevis Vance  |  November 23rd, 2005 at 3:32 pm

  Continuing to comment negatively one way or the other on this harvest plays right into the hands of the people who want to end all hunting and fishing rights. Most great battles are won by first dividing the enemy, and we’re dividing our ranks for them. Appreciate the freedoms you have to chose on what you like or don’t like, and allow others to do the same, but stay united on our rights to hunt and fish, public or private. I hunt public land with no desire to hunt high fence, but I have no problem with those who do. The earths population is only getting bigger and God isn’t making more dirt. If someone has private property (that I can’t access anyway) and they want to offer a hunting or (harvest) opportunity to someone who would enjoy it and can afford it, then that’s their right, and for those of us who hunt public lands, that could be one less hunter vying for our spot. A trophy is in the eye of the beholder.

• 99. Steve Johnson  |  November 23rd, 2005 at 5:04 pm

  Tevis at post 98 makes a great point. Agree or disagree and state your point but don’t make these personal attacks. It’s okay to disagree. Don’t worry too much about spelling or grammar. It’s not that big of deal.

  We really do have to protect hunting all the way around or our kids may not get to enjoy what we are arguing about right now. When I posted earlier (post 38) I tried to express my opinions on “fair chase” vs “fenced” or “hunting vs killing”. I don’t like the situation in which this bull was taken regardless of his size. Obviously some don’t have a problem with it.

  In regards to Elk Hunter on post 92 that says he is tired of hunting and only finding spikes or cows on public land, there is a good reason for that: The big dudes are harder to find because they can escape. Farm animals in high fence ranches cannot. Free range animals are smarter. Have you ever noticed how many times you have seen a trophy animal just on the other side of the posted sign or just inside the Indian Land? I don’t think it is because they can read. It is because they know they won’t get shot (chased) in there. (Maybe not I just thought that was a cool scenario).

  To all of you that own hunting ranches, I will never bash you for that. I am merely saying that you will never have me as a customer. To Elk Guy on post 90, I think you under estimate a lot of these guys. They are not jealous about this elk, they are just passionate about their hunting. I would like to test the theory that some have brought up that they all would jump at the chance if the hunt was free because I disagree with that thought.

  I would like to see one of the ranch owners that have posted here to contact any one of the guys that posted on here that say they are against this type of thing and offer them a free hunt. Make them responsible for travel expenses etc, but the hunt is free. See how many of them turn it down. What do you have to lose? Look at the marketing. Read the headline. “Naysayer kills trophy bull”. If he comes back from this adventure with a change of attitude and puts the rest of us straight, you could get some new clients. (Or, he will just take a beating from the rest of us like Kevin Reid has but that will be fun too).

  I do okay and could probably afford such a hunt if I planned properly but I still would not do it. I hunt because I enjoy it, not because I can afford it. This would not be enjoyable to me. I have a son that just turned 14 on Nov 19th. My older son did not have a real interest in hunting or fishing like this one does. I am sure many of you know what kind of excitement he and I have had and will continue to share for many years.

• 100. Todd Smith  |  November 24th, 2005 at 9:47 am

  MARK AND DR. TOM LAVALLE,

  Hey I REALLY enjoyed your advertisement on comment #96… Doesn’t it feel good to put down other ways of business to sell some of your ways!

• 101. chad  |  November 24th, 2005 at 2:18 pm

  To change the subject I heard on 700 WLW am out of Cinn Ohio that the Humain Socity is trying to stop youth hunting out there. That is one way to get the people not to hunt. Stopping the future generation then it will die out . So i think we all should get along (High fence or fair chase)becuse if they stop one or the other they will come after you too

• 102. Mark  |  November 25th, 2005 at 2:58 pm

  Hey Hunter #97, I’m happy to report to you that I believe as you do, I’m sorry to say, It is just impossible to open the ranch and let folks come in and hunt anymore. Due to the many bad experiences we have had in the past, we are no longer able to open our ranch to the public. ( I wish David King would start a forum about bad hunting experiences and unethical hunters that give hunting and outdoorsmen a bad name) that could be real valuable to us all. Although we no longer allow just any hunter to roam the ranch like we use to in years past, we donate hunts that we can guide and outfit to local and national charities. Last year we gave a fully guided Bull elk hunt to the American Disabled Vetrans in Albq. NM to raffle off at $10.00 a ticket. That hunt, I’m proud to say, raised over $10,000.00 for them. My wife and I sold about half of those tickets at our gift shop. We did not, nor would we have accepted any money from that hunt. It cost us a $3,500.00 tag and about $400.00 in food, but was worth every penny. We also donated a youth hunt this year that was turned into a TV show in hopes that it would excite other kids to pick up the sport of hunting and spending time oudoors with thier parents. We have allowed disabled hunters to hunt the ranch to give them a better chance at taking a buck than what they would have on public land. One of these hunters was buzzed a number of times by a local hunter flying a powered parachute. I don’t think he knew the disabled hunter was there. I think he was just trying to drive the elk and deer off our land on to the national forrest.
  This year we are donating all of our turkey hunts to raise money for a christian charity that works with the poor. I hope to sell 12 three day turkey hunts here on the ranch for over $1,000.00 each. I know that is a lot of money for a $300.00 hunt, but I know God will find me 12 hunters or a Company that are willing to spend that kind of money knowing it will go to children in need. 505-862-8888
  Hunter , I have been blessed these last 10 years since finding Jesus, I went from being homeless and not even able to afford a public land hunt to owning a private ranch. We do what we can here. I’ll telll you this, every penny that is made off of our tags goes right back in to the habitat improvements. Windmills are about $30,000.00 each. Water wells run about $3,000.00 to $6,000.00 each to drill. A 50lb bags of native grass seed is over $200.00 and will only seed about 10 to 20 acres. Repairing fences from elk damage, is a daily chore here and fence material is not cheap. We constructed a 6 mile fence last summer to corden off a creek we are rehabing. that project alone cost over $25,000.00 not counting our time and labor, all summer. My wife and I make our living from a small gift shop that we own, and much of the profits from that go in to the ranch.
  I bet that I would be safe in saying that most ranchers that sell hunts, put that money right back in to the land plus more.
  As for Todd # 100, After rereading my comments, I guess your right, it does sound as if I’m putting down ranches that raise game to harvest. I’m sorry. I did not mean to make it sound that way. I was trying to let people know that we do not operate a high fence ranch. The owners of those type of operations spend a whole lot more than we do to keep thier ranches up and going. I can not imagine what they spend to run that kind of hunting ranch. When you start to think about feed, vet care, fences, land costs, lodging costs, habitat improvements and just the daily labor costs, it’s no wonder they HAVE to charge the prices they do. Hunters paying those kinds of prices need something special to hunt. God bless them and good luck.
  This has been a very interesting and enjoyable forum. I have learned a few things here that will only make me a better outdoorsman and land owner. Thanks all.

• 103. Hunter  |  November 26th, 2005 at 1:34 pm

  Mark

  I agree that some of the public shouldn’t be hunting because of their lack of ethics and behaivor. Unfortanately, I probably have seen it more than you. However, there are good well behaved hunters out there that are not wealthy and that will treat you with respect and follow your rules while hunting your ranch. I have never thought wide open hunting was the only way to go, nor will I ever. I like and respect your raffle / charity commintments and the fact that you commit so much $ back to the infrastructure of the ranch. Just consider allowing some of the general public the opportunity to enjoy what you built. Sounds like you used to be down on your luck and probably would have loved the opportunity to hunt a ranch like you own now. Something to think about.

• 104. Mark  |  November 26th, 2005 at 6:29 pm

  Hunter,
  we do allow a few good public hunters to hunt the ranch at no charge. these are the disabled hunters ( mule deer)and the youth hunts ( cow elk) I spoke of. we do not allow just any one on the ranch, and can’t afford to allow too many. The state of NM gives us the opion of receiving unit wide tags or ranch only tags. If we took the unit wide tags our hunters could hunt both the ranch and surrounding forrest, but we would have to allow the general public access to our private lands. That is where we have the problems. I don’t know how the hunters in your area hunt, but it is not unusal to see a pickup truck filled with a bunch of drunk men from the reservation or Gallup come driving do the road with gun barrals out the window during bow season. I have called the game warden about 6 times in the last 3 years about trucks abbandoned on our property after they cut our fence and got stuck or broke down. The hunters were gone but they left thier truck, beer cans and other trash on us. No thanks, we will stick to ranch only tags. This allows us to keep our lands open to only those that are invited and not just any knot head from town with a case of beer and a 4 wheel drive. Our management plan calls for only 6 bulls a year to be taken. that is why we only have 8 hunts a year right now. We keep our cow hunts and give them to youths, our pastor at church and a few other local families that need the meat. But, we must keep the nice bulls for the paying hunters so that we can make the money for our habitat projects. we allow other hunters that have contacted us to come in and hunt the ranch for other game , such as prarie dogs, coyotes, bears, bobcats and lions. We do this as part of the wildlife plan. So far, these hunters have been great. Thanks again. Mark

• 105. Hunter  |  November 28th, 2005 at 12:52 pm

  Mark
  I know all about those types of hunters. They don’t deserve to hunt anywhere. However, they don’t represent the general hunting public as a whole. They are only a fraction of it! Don’t allow the bad apples to influence your preception of all hunters. You will probably find that some, not all of your paying clients have committed simular or worse wildlife violations or other crimes and they still get to hunt. I understand that you probably don’t have time to do backgrounds on them, but you may be surprised. Again, something to think about.

• 106. idaho guide  |  November 30th, 2005 at 11:15 am

  What is the difference between buying and elk in a High Fence. Or going to a “charity auction” and buying a govenor’s or conservation tag. Either way you are buying you elk.

• 107. Hunter 23  |  November 30th, 2005 at 8:05 pm

  An Elk is an Elk and that is a great accomplishment (even though it you could probably pet it)

• 108. dave  |  November 30th, 2005 at 8:47 pm

  il wonder if we have any elk like that in new mexico

• 109. dave  |  November 30th, 2005 at 8:48 pm

  nah

• 110. Lyda  |  December 1st, 2005 at 3:46 am

  I have hunted for 40 years the last 6 years I have been Disabled, but I have got my cow elk every year in last 6 years and I stell love hunting, and being in the mt. here in Or. I am 60 and hope to stell be going hunting for deer and elk, my son go’s with me. he would love to get a bull like those, and I would be happy for him for he has helped me out so much. I think it’s o.k to hunt on a farm . great job Kevin keep it up

• 111. dt  |  December 3rd, 2005 at 1:15 pm

  I’ve been hunting elk for about 7 years now in Colorado. I have never seen an animal this big, but I was close to a nice one (350 class) on public land. I wouldn’t like to hunt on private land, but to someone else it might be a rush, good for them. I’m sure it is still a challenge.
  The important thing is to take a great memory and story back with you. I hope it was a great hunt Kevin, and that is an awesome bull.

  P.S. Good luck to all the other hunters!

• 112. Kelly Kelso  |  December 7th, 2005 at 9:14 pm

  I have been so eager to post, i am only 13 years old and this was my first year hunting. I have had a great experience with duck, dove, chukar, and even deer hunting. But hunting on private land that is only 1000 acres is like cutting a ducks wings off and shooting it from 3 feet away with a cannon! I may be 13 and i am speaking for the youth hunters who are actually “hunters” i probably know more about ethical hunting than 80% of you who post on here. And Elk hunter you give hunting a bad name change your name to Elk Butcher then it would suit you better. Sure it is a nice bull if you are to lazy to go out into the “wild” in case you dont know what the wild is its the place where animals without fences go and liveand “real” hunters hunt them, the bull is big but i would rather “hunt” a cow elk than go and pay for my lazyness and kill a 500+ bull. So if you want to pay your way to slaughter a bull elk that is probably more intelligent than you just think why where you to lazy to go out and kill your own in the wild the “huntersway”

• 113. theo  |  December 8th, 2005 at 9:42 am

  kelly, You’ve hunted for one year and you think your the worlds greatest hunter….. Dont flatter yourself!!! I dont think you’ve ever hunted on a private ranch, so until you do, i would just shut my mouth because its harder than most people think!

• 114. Kelly Kelso  |  December 8th, 2005 at 3:44 pm

  Well you probably cant hunt worth crap and ive out shot lost of older people even if i have hunted for 1 year. just because your to lazy to go out and and actulay “hunt” ,you know you should try it some time, doest mean your huge bull elk that was well lets say cornered doest mean it should go into the record book. and Theo saying hunting an elk in a box is hard then you must not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with an arrow!!!

• 115. Steve Minnis  |  December 8th, 2005 at 5:40 pm

  Theo, i certainly don’t know how old you are but it’s pretty sad that you chastise a 13 year old for having the gumption to post on this site. He may not be as articulate as someone with more years but he certainly has some passion for his new sport. I for one am very impressed that after only one yeare of hunting, this young sportsman understands the concept of fair chase.

• 116. theo  |  December 8th, 2005 at 6:03 pm

  Steve, Thats good kelly likes to hunt, i dont see anything wrong with that, its when he starts putting down something he doesnt know anything about…. thats what really bugs me…oh and kelly i’ve shot five elk with my bow on public property and have walked countless miles, but it sounds like you’ve walked and shot more than anybody on this site, so why dont you teach us all how to hunt!!!!!!!

• 117. Jayson  |  December 8th, 2005 at 7:19 pm

  Hey Kelly keep up the good work the young sportsman are the future of hunting!!!!! It sounds like someone has taught you the importance of hunting not killing for me and many others the hunt is what counts the memories you take home and the stories you get to tell for years to come. The harvest of any game should be a incredible moment in your life no matter how big or small.I think some hunters forget the excitment of being a new hunter wether they are 13 or 50.I have been lucky enough to harvest several animals and have wonderful memories and stories for each one.I think some hunters forget how great the hunt is and just want to kill or maybe they are in a place where they think that the only way to harvest a monster is to pay for it I really don’t know.I do know that a ranch hunt isn’t for me or the small handfull of sportsmen I hunt with.

  Theo hey give the kid a break I have to agree with Steve it’s great to know that the future of our sport will continue to grow thanks to the youth hunter without them there is no future for hunting.One of my biggest fears where I live is that the DWR will get fed up with trying to manage the herds and dealing with the tree huggers and they will turn all our big game hunting over to private ranches. I hope you haven’t forgotten how exciting it was to be new to hunting we should all be takeing youth hunters out in the field teaching them good ethics and secureing the future of a sport that for a good percentage of us we have gotten so much out of!!!!!!!!!!!

• 118. Kelly Kelso  |  December 8th, 2005 at 10:10 pm

  Well its good to see that at least some people know what hunting and fair chase is, so im not alone. Im surprised that if anyone really killed 5 elk with their bow under fair chase conditions that they would support slaughtering penned up animals

• 119. chad  |  December 9th, 2005 at 7:31 am

  Sound like Kelly had some help by his dad to write all that in response 112

• 120. Kelly Kelso  |  December 9th, 2005 at 11:13 am

  you wish i had help just because you cant come up with anything else to say and your jelous that im in 8th grade and can be more creative than you.

• 121. theo  |  December 9th, 2005 at 5:29 pm

  Kelly………I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your not the hunter you think your are. You would think that a mature thirteen year old like yourself would know that people that have hunted for 10 to 15 years would know a little more about it than you!!!! It sounds like you’ve been hunting for 20 years. Let me just tell you this…….have you ever been on an elk ranch or seen one? You’ve never hunted on one, but you sit there and you critisize them for something you dont know anything about, so until you hunt on one or even see an elk ranch, you should keep your opinions to yourself!!!!!

• 122. Pleth  |  December 9th, 2005 at 6:40 pm

  Easy does it Theo! ooooowwww!!!!!

• 123. stalker  |  December 9th, 2005 at 9:40 pm

  yo, theo, sounds like your a little cocky youself and i bet it makes you feel real good to critisize a thirteeen year-old. man, i’m only 15, but i’ve hunted fair chase and this year i hiked my a#@ off. i passed up prabably ten big bucks and never killed a thing. now that is hunting. not walking in a pen and killing a pen raised bull.

• 124. Kelly Kelso  |  December 9th, 2005 at 9:42 pm

  THeo, GIve it a Rest.

• 125. Kelly Kelso  |  December 9th, 2005 at 9:53 pm

  Theo, one last comment to you. As a matter of fact I have been on an elk ranch. Each year I help feed wild elk during the winter. The elk come right up to the wagon I’m riding on, and eat the hay bales that you’re sitting on. I guess I could stick one with an arrow, the problem is I would have to lean back in order to draw my bow because they are so close. Is that the kind of elk hunting that you are used to?

• 126. theo  |  December 10th, 2005 at 10:29 pm

  Kelly, no i’ve never killed an elk out of season riding on a hay wagon feeding winter range elk………Is that an elk ranch?

• 127. Mark  |  December 11th, 2005 at 9:01 am

  Debating an idiot is like trying to milk a boar hog. You aint goin to get no milk and just look foolish.

• 128. Mark  |  December 11th, 2005 at 3:49 pm

  REDNECK HUNTER BAGS MISSISSIPPI MULE JACK DEER
  I’ll tell about real huntin boys. i been huntin the same patch of creek bottom for near 2 years now tryin to get me a torphy to hang on my wall like my cuzin Dew knot has on his wall. Cuzin dew is the local taxedermatist, and has and knows about all the animals here in Miississippi.
  It all started a while back when I visited him to return his box of sears craftsman wrenchs. Sho some of the wrench was missin , but only the ones that no one ever uses much, and the box I returned them in was not the cheap plastic one they came in from the factory. I just thought the flowery tin box my wife used to keep her sowing stuff in made the wrenchs sound good when they mixed around in it. Plus the cheap plastic box was better to tote fish lures in instead of a brown paper bag where the hooks could poke out and get ya.
  Any ways, I noticed layin there on Dew Knots garage floor that he had the most beautiful animal head I’d ever seen hangin on his wall right next to the kings huntin callander. I put a toe hook to the face move on him and rolled him off my chest to get a better look at the critter. It wasn’t that big, but it was like nothin I’d ever seen. Maybe cuz I’d never seen one of these critters before. Dew told me that it was a Mississippi mule jack deer, half jackrabbit and half western mule deer, the results of some crazed goverment expirerment gone bad . They was very rare, but he told me after a couple minutes of my famus half nelson mixed with a nose twister pantie wedger, that some had been breedin down in old mans Johnson creek woods, and that he had found this one dead on the bridge that crosses over the creek. He brung it home and stuffed it up real good and hung it on the wall.
  I checked with our local game kastopo, Officer Luke ( stop runnin or I’ll shoot ) brown, and he told me there was no such animal. Now, I knowed I was on to somethin. If cuzin Dew had one on the wall and if the game warden was tryin to keep them a secret, they must be very rare and if they is rare they must be valuable. And since acordin to Ol’ stop runnin or I’ll shoot says there aint no such critter, then I figure there aint no season on em. Now stop right there boys, I know what yer thinkin. i’m just a low life horn hunter. Wrong, wrong, I plan on eatin the meat even if it’s taste wirst than fried skunk, which kind of taste like fried coon , which taste like possum , which taste like all the other critters I have found dead on state road 212 after a busy night of pool husselin down at dukes bar and bait shop.
  I tell ya boys, if you want some real huntin, try Mississsippi mule jack deer huntin. Them buggers don’t come out at all in the light. so, you can’t ever see em. coon hounds can’t track em cuz they jump too far at a time to keep a good track goin and don’t even think about night shinin, they can hear ya comin a mile away and just keep real still with thier eye balls closed til ya drive pass em.
  I been sittin in the creek bottom now about every other night from about midnite til almost sun up for the last 2 years tryin to bag me a trophy jack deer bull. I don’t hunt no high fence places. I tend to like the ones you can just kind of push down the top wire and scoot one leg over at a time fence places, and since ol’ man Johnson only has a four wire short fence, it’s easy to sneak in and out of. You other fellas that keep talkin about fair chase huntin, I have found it is a hole lot easyer to shoot a critter if you don’t chase it. Try sittin real still in some bushes or in a hollow log and wait for the critter to walk by. then shoot it. that little piece of advice might stop all your complaining about how you can’t seem to get you a bull on public land.
  Well got to go . the suns goin down and I’m going to try somethin new to night. My other cuzin, Stumpy Jones is goin huntin with me tonite. Stump works for the railroad blowin track line through the swamp with dynomite. He has a plan on how we might get one of them Mule jack deers. We might just get the whole herd if his plan works out. Ya all take care. Bubba

• 129. JP  |  December 11th, 2005 at 9:12 pm

  Mark, it’s pretty scary that someone gave you access to a computer…..do they let you drive a car too???

• 130. Mark  |  December 12th, 2005 at 7:53 am

  Real men don’t drive no cars JP, unless it’s around and round at the dirt track. real men drive trucks. I got a 1955 Ford F100 . thanks for the reply. Bubba

• 131. Hunter 23  |  December 12th, 2005 at 9:15 pm

  wow mark you sound real inteligent. Id take a lot of advice from you. BUBBA:)

• 132. Mark  |  December 13th, 2005 at 8:36 am

  Hunter 23, If you thought that little tip I gave about not chasin the critters you are tryin to shoot was somethin, you is goin to like my new book that is being sold down to Dukes bar and bait shop. It’s jam packed with goodins.
  chaptor 1, H2o + electriserty = FISH FRY
  chaptor 2, apple and hammer huntin at the petin zoo
  chaptor 3, ethics shmethics, i want to kill somethin
  chaptor 4, poachin, the other huntin season

• 133. Kelly Kelso  |  December 13th, 2005 at 3:32 pm

  Dear, Mark take a hint YOUR NOT FUNNY. You might think your funny but to me your just a person trying to make fun of hunting because you know you cant do it yourself. Its like people say act you age not your IQ.

• 134. Mark  |  December 13th, 2005 at 4:31 pm

  Sorry kid. I know that last one was a bit uncalled for.I was just tryin to lightin up this site a bit. I promise not to write anymore smart comments . I bet your just a hoot to have around deer camp.

• 135. j larsen  |  December 15th, 2005 at 12:01 am

  What a bunch of BULL ____. I dont think this guy should even show his face on here talking about this huge bull he killed in a zoo.

• 136. tod L  |  December 15th, 2005 at 10:48 am

  Who cares where it was killed……… killing is killing……. all hunting is murder and all hunting of all sorts should be shut down and let organizations control the populations without killing any of our precious animals. They were not put here for your fun

• 137. Keith  |  December 15th, 2005 at 1:57 pm

  Hey Tod L, either stay in California or move back there.

• 138. Kelly Kelso  |  December 15th, 2005 at 3:13 pm

  Dear Tod L, all hunting is not murder, hunting is when you try to hunt an animal that has a chance to “get away” murder is when you kill something that cannot get away or is fenced in like Mr. Reid decided to do.

• 139. Mark  |  December 15th, 2005 at 5:18 pm

  Hey Tod L, what organizations do suggest control the animal populations and how.

• 140. Hunter  |  December 15th, 2005 at 5:56 pm

  Kelly

  Are you realy 13? Anyway, good job. Stick with your convictions!

  Your right and everyone knows it!

• 141. rick dog  |  December 15th, 2005 at 8:48 pm

  Tod L, You need to just stay off this web site if your so against hunting and killing..You know some people dont just kill for the hell of it, some people need the meat to put food on the table. So you just go ahead and eat your vegtebles and vegy burgers and worry more about yourself!

• 142. Mark  |  December 15th, 2005 at 9:10 pm

  Kelly,
  Mr. Reid harvested a mature bull elk at a game ranch. He did not murder it. Here’s something you might want to do. Print all the comments that you have made here and that others have made concerning this great bull and how it was harvested. Put this printout somewhere safe so you can look at it from time to time as you grow older and wiser. Hopefully you will have the same passion for hunting you seem to have now when you are a very old man. Also, hopefully you will have learned by then that we do not lift ourselves up by putting others down. And if you really want to gain insight on the sport of hunting, read a book titled , Never sniff a gift fish, by Patrick McManus. Now that’s FUNNY.

• 143. MW  |  December 16th, 2005 at 11:38 am

  I’ve never posted a comment, but this topic hits home. I have hunted for 35 years. I currently (with my brothers) own livestock and pack into an Oregon wilderness annually unaided. In 1986 I privately packed into an Idaho wilderness (saved for a year to buy the tags), to find the outfitters assigned to the area had placed salt blocks strategically around in the unit. Don’t plan on going back to Idaho. Never will hunt behind a “high fence”. There’s a difference in hunting and harvesting. Some choose to harvest. What we all must remember is money drives everything we do. Most anything can be bought. If those more fortunate choose to harvest, then so be it. But it should never be confused with fair chase. Also, I want them and their money on my side. Not on the side of those that want to ban the sport. Can’t help but admire the animal though. Would have loved to seen it alive, up close and personal. Remember guys and gals, us hunters are the minority…we need to stick together.

• 144. MW  |  December 16th, 2005 at 12:46 pm

  Wanted to add one more thing. Remember the Golden Rule…he who has the gold, makes the rules.

• 145. Sean Morgan  |  December 16th, 2005 at 11:35 pm

  Hey Mark 142, If you’re the same Mark that posted on 76 I’m a little confused. How could a cynical old game warden that believes that 90% of hunters are law breakers, have the proper perspective on the sport of hunting? I hope you’re not in the position to influence too many young people.

• 146. Steve Minnis  |  December 16th, 2005 at 11:50 pm

  Tod L, I enjoyed reading your comment……….it makes me feel very intelligent. Keep up the good work !!!!

• 147. Kelly Kelso  |  December 17th, 2005 at 12:16 am

  well one thing i know is that i will always love hunting no matter what anybody says if someone feels that hunting is murdur then that is thier opinion but it only means that they didnt open their eyes to the world. And Mark you confuse me as well, first you make fun of hunters then you say you know what the difference between harvest and murder is hmmm wonder if you really do know.

• 148. Kelly Kelso  |  December 17th, 2005 at 12:18 am

  Tod L., go back to your tree hugging party friends and never get on another computer again for the sake of all that is sain.

• 149. Ken Hyde  |  December 17th, 2005 at 9:50 am

  Excuse me Tod L, but when an animal is placed in a fenced area, and raised to bring a high dollar it is indeed placed there for someone’s fun as well as for someone’s profit. Besides, what people do for fun is their business and people like you need to learn to mind your own business and stick to things that you like to do for fun, and who knows what that might be. Perhaps picketing for gay rights.

• 150. Mark  |  December 17th, 2005 at 10:39 am

  Sean,
  I don’t understand your problem with my post on 76. Was it the part about horn hunting for bragging rights or the money. Is it the part where I made the comment that we should take our family hunting to enjoy the outdoors. Yes, I was a game warden. during hunting season check pionts were set up on county dirt roads and hunters were checked while driving into and out of the woods. I would say that 90% of the hunters had loaded weapons in the vehicles, a violation of state law in the state that I worked. the first time offenders were given a verbal warning. Is that what you have a problem with? Stopping illegal road hunting from a pickup. I won’t even go into the other more creative ways I found unehtical idiots to illegally take game animals, so that I don’t give an idiot that is reading this any ideas. Or maybe, you have a problem with the hunters that create food plots or fill the woods with mineral blocks and illegal baiting on state and federal land. I do educate young hunters. I stress ehtics above all. I teach that it is the exprience of being outdoors and not winninig the local big buck contest down at the country store that is the reward. It burns me when some one calls killing an animal murder. You hunt an animal then you harvest it. If we allow people to call harvesting a penned animal murder we give the peta nuts ammo. I raise a butcher beef every year in a corral. Am I murdering that beef when it’s time to butcher it? How about the poor little chickens I keep in a coop? Are they murdered when it’s time to fry one up? Get real, get legal and enjoy the woods. As for comment 128, I am proud to say that I grew up with and still live amoung the socially challanged, or as we have been called, REDNECKS. If you can’t make fun of yourself and enjoy life, get off my rock your taken up room.

• 151. Sean Morgan  |  December 17th, 2005 at 10:40 am

  Tod L.

  What would you have the “organizations” that you refer to actually do to control animal populations, if harvesting is not an option? Perhaps they could transplant the appropriate numbers of critters to the same planet you came from.

• 152. Kelly Kelso  |  December 17th, 2005 at 11:35 am

  Dear Tod L., through all the posts you have recived i hope you now know the difference between “murder” and “hunting”. If not then never get on this website again and act like you know what your talking about! go back to your hippy friends and go try to save some trees!

• 153. Sean Morgan  |  December 17th, 2005 at 12:29 pm

  Mark, my comment regarding your post on 76 was directly related to the attitude that wild life conservation officers have toward sportsmen. In the past 38 years I’ve personally experienced a dramatic shift in Idaho Conservation Officers attitude toward the people that spend millions of dollars supporting wildlife management. When I was 12 years old, the local Game Warden in the area I hunted, was Claud Matthews. Athough Mr. Matthews was very strict in his enforcement practices, he was personable and was not annoyed by his encounters with hunters. I clearly got the message that he was doing his part to balance the management of game with the management of hunters. The CO of today seems little interested in game management which is a more complex issue than limiting the numbers of harvested animals. If it comes to a conflict between what the biologists say and what the enforcement divisions says, the enforcement arm of the organization always prevails.

  I think you’re confusing me with someone else on your “murder” commentary. However, I do believe that killing a captive animal is called “slaughter” whether the animal is typically considered wild or if it is mearly a moo cow. I don’t agree with you that “sticking together” as sportsmen, when you include guys like Kevin Reid has any meaningful benefit to the hunting sport. As far as my personal view of hunting vs killing, havesting, taking, bagging, or what ever term you prefer, I’ll just end with this note; I’ve hunted with a bow and arrow since the age of 16. The reason I chose archery equipment to hunt with wasn’t because someone else was doing it, or I saw it on the “how to” TV program, it’s because I love to watch the flight of an arrow. Since I was already a hunter thanks to my Dad, it was a no brainer that I became a hunting archer. And no……I don’t use high tech lazer guided contraptions, I hunt with what is referred to today as traditional equipment. If you are familiar with stick bows you will know that even in experienced hands they truely limit the hunters success. While I do enjoy the success of taking an animal with a well placed arrow, my fondest and most memorable stories that I tell friends are about the “ones that got away”

  Your assessment of me as well as the 90% group you referred to is off the mark, most likely a result of your former career. The point that you might consider stressing in your education of the youth, is that the commercialization of hunting by big business, whether it’s “high fenced hunting” high tech equipment, or the latest and greatest food supplement, will be the certian demise of the wonderful sport that some of us consider a priviledge.

• 154. Mark  |  December 17th, 2005 at 4:25 pm

  Sean,
  Thanks and well put. I would like to invite you down to the great state of New Mexico next season as a guess at our ranch. You will have to pay the out of state fees, travel and meals, but I will provide you with a great bull elk hunt. I would love to be able to film a traditional bow hunt to be featured on the show.

• 155. Sean Morgan  |  December 18th, 2005 at 4:20 am

  Mark, thanks for the offer but I respectfully decline. I am very selective in choosing where and who I hunt with. Some of my closest friends would not be considered when I plan a hunt because we do not share the same philosophical beliefs about the sport. I know many of the folks that have posted on this site would think I’m a little short of arrows in my quiver for turning down such an opportunity, but it really doesn’t interest me. I truely embrace the concept that the hunt is greater than the kill. It is not just rhetoric to me. I once voice bugled a mature 6×6 in to 4feet in front of me. I was kneeling in a stand of scrub pines, arrow nocked, when the bull I had been working for about an hour, decided to close the 100 yard distance and enter the only concealment I could find on the hillside. When he entered the cover he was about 15 feet away. In just the blink of an eye this rut crazed bull lowered his head, took a few steps forward parting the small pine trees with his brow tines. When his head came up, we were eye to eye at 4 feet. Had I pushed my bow arm forward I would have poked him in the nose with my broadhead. Needless to say the bull swapped ends so fast I just knelt there in awe. I would not trade that experience for any dead bull. So I guess this blog has been valuable in the sense that we have both moved a little forward in our understanding of each others point of view.

• 156. Mark  |  December 18th, 2005 at 12:14 pm

  Sean,
  No problem. As for my confusing you with my harvest vs. murder comment, I’m sorry, that comment was dirrected at kelly # 138
  I think if you reread my comments on #76, you will find that I too believe that the sport of hunting is being commercialized by big business, but that has been going on since Og traded Bog a stick with a sharpened piece of flint tied to it for a piece of wooly mamoth steak. I don’t see anything wrong with new products coming on the market to aid hunters or fisherman. It’s when people knowingly use the products to harvest an animal in an illegal mannor that needs to be addressed. The pursuit of that throphy on the wall makes some hunt unethically and others just miss out on the experince on being in the outdoors. Either by looking over thier shoulder for the game warden or by not taking thier wives or kids with them. While other times it’s best to go in the woods alone to have a great experience. You seem to understand this more than others.
  I’m truely glad there are hunters like you that insist on hunting with a stick and arrow in the wild without the aid of illegally placed mineral blocks, q beams or other devises used illlegally.
  Yes my work as a game warden did influence my view of hunters and hunting. I was able to enter hunting camps and visit with all sorts of folks and enjoyed meeting families and friends out hunting together. I was there to check for violations and most of the time was able to find something that needed to be corrected, but that goes right back to competitive hunting and the strong nature we have to gain bragging rights. Be it at the camp level or in the record books.
  As for this forum, I still feel that Mr. Reid